Thank you, Keith.

Yes, "details of spelling matter", but we should not leap to conclusions on the basis of spelling alone, as the frequent misspellings of my own name testify!

However, misplaced hyphens have obscured my argument, so I’ll try again. 

"From the thirteenth to the fifteenth centuries, the V shape (used for both the vowel and the consonant) was used primarily as the first letter of a word … The first graphic differentiation of the two letters occurred in a Gothic alphabet, dating from 1386.” 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=63Qnbt2CMiMC&pg=PA124&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Given that all subsequent spellings of Vlnenlane begin with vowels (U or I), it seems likely that the first letter (V) of Vlnenlane is used as a vowel.

I hope that’s clearer.

You say “Modern Latin anatomical terms have no relevance to vernacular ME”. 

I would dispute this, but terms found in the Dictionary of Medical Vocabulary in English (1375-1550) are hardly "Modern Latin anatomical terms.”

The dictionary includes a reference to the ulna and gives ulne as an alternative, perhaps more anglicised, spelling. This would explain the second -n- as an English suffix yielding the adjective ulnen, meaning elbow-like. It might also explain the origin of ulnen in modern medicine.

I tried to answer Jeremy’s view that the meaning would be “of the fore-arms” rather than “like an elbow.” Certainly, the modern medical term refers to the larger bone in the forearm (although Gray’s Anatomy also refers to it as “the elbow bone”), but the Dictionary of Medical Vocabulary in English (1375-1550) defines ulna/ulne as both from “the elbow to the hand” and  from "shoulder to elbow”. Either way, the elbow is involved. 

Modern Colliton Street does not have an obvious elbow-like bend, but the same road on the 1610 map certainly did, so I don’t think Martin’s suggestion can be dismissed. 

On 11 Jul 2020, at 09:40, Keith Briggs <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I don't follow any of the argument about -V- and -U-.    There are V- and U- in the spellings, and possibly -v- and -u-, but no -V- and -U-.

Details of spelling matter.   That's how I know that Stephen Doughety is not the same person as the Stephen Dougherty who posted on this list about London last year. 

Modern Latin anatomical terms have no relevance to vernacular ME.

Keith 

From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Stephen Doughety <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 10 July 2020 22:25
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:  Ilnenelane
 
True, Latin street names are rare (though Paternoster Lane springs to mind), but street names derived from a Middle English word with a Latin origin are not uncommon (Poultry, for example).

In the Dictionary of Medical Vocabulary in English (1375 - 1550), Ulna is sometimes spelled Ulne and is described both as “Arm from shoulder to elbow” and “the boon that streccheth from the elbow to the hande”. The common element, though is ‘elbow’.


In modern medicine “Ulnar” is “Of or pertaining to the ulna, or the elbow" (Wiktionary), however, the word Ulnen is used when “ 1. Referring only to the ulna. 2. Relating to the ulna independent of other structures. https://wordinfo.info/unit/2213/s:ulnen

It seems, then, that Ulnen is being used adjectivally (like “wooden” or “flaxen”), which would surely also be the case in 14th century England, particularly since the ME spelling was sometimes Ulne ? This would explain the second -n- .

There are still Elbow Lanes around the country (Leicester, Wisbech, Hertford, Stevenage) and there is a former Elbow Lane in London, so it seems possible that a synonym for elbow might be used for a street that did once bend like an elbow.

If the -V- is a -U-, (which is almost certainly the case), the first two spellings on the list are the same. The second spelling is clearly a shortened version of the first, and the -I-  replacing the -u- is either the scribe choosing a different letter to represent the same vowel sound (likely, given the inconsistent spelling of the time) or represents a different pronunciation. Perhaps the -U- was pronounced [y] which sounds very much like an -I-? Therefore, it seems likely the reading Ulnenlane is correct.  I can’t see any Elves in this though. Where’s the -f- or the -v-?

On 10 Jul 2020, at 13:43, Keith Briggs <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

English streets don't have Latin names, and ulna would not explain the second -n-.   (Anyway, we don't know that the reading Ulnenlane is correct.)

Keith 

From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Stephen Doughety <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 10 July 2020 12:58
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:  Ilnenelane
 
I’m with Martin on this. Since ulna is Latin for elbow, and the earliest mention is Ulnenlane, Elbow Street  seems quite possible, particularly since a 1610 map shows what must now be Colliton Street (immediately north of  St Peters) bending into the Shambles. The bend was much more apparent then.

https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/c/cb/1610_Map_of_Dorchester.png

Stephen

On 9 Jul 2020, at 19:59, Keith Briggs <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I note these in Keith Briggs, An index to personal names in English place-names (forthcoming): 

Ælfwine PASE182 (OE, ODan) (→Ælfwynn, Alfwynn (f)) DLV; ASCh5.29; Alban Lane (Chester) (Ch); Alston (D); Aluinelee Hy 3, Aluineode c.1250, Alumeweye (for Aluine-) c.1260 (Db); Elvington (ERY); Alvingate, Alvington, Elton, Alvinebach 1276, Alvonewelle 14th, Alwynneshomme 1256 (Gl); Winsley House (He); ?Elstob (ND); Aluvynesfeld t.Ed 1 (Nth); Alwinescrofte c.1240 in Sibford Gower (O); Alvington (So); Alwinesrode 1204, Alwynhill 13, Elfwinetrop 1155 (WRY).

Ælfwynn fem PASE8 (→Ælfwine) Alwington (D); ?Allum Green (Ha); ?Alvington Manor Farm (IoW); ASCh17–18.126; Alvington  (Gl); Aluinelond 1244 in Stanton Harcourt (O); Aveley Hall (in Assington) (Sf); Alvington (So).

Ælfwine thus seems especially common in place-names, and I would suggest that Richard's Elvinelond is an instance.

Keith 

From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Carole Hough <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 09 July 2020 10:08
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:  Ilnenelane
 
Yes, there's absolutely no problem with the same specific combining with different generics. It's the preponderance that I thought might be suggestive.

Carole

From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Keith Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 09 July 2020 09:57
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [EPNL]  Ilnenelane
 
ODFNBI under Alwin has some good examples, with the nicely comprehensive comment "from the Middle English personal nameAlwin, Elwin, representing several Old English names: Ealdwine, Æðelwine, Ealhwine, and Ælfwine . These names are composed respectively of eald ‘old’, æðel ‘noble’, ealh ‘temple’ and ælf ‘elf, sprite’, + wine ‘friend’".   

So with Ælfwine in a place-name we could have an apparent elf when there really isn't one.

In Homersfield in Suffolk I've got Alwineshill 1200 and Alwynestenemen 1368, showing that you can get the same name with a topographic generic and with not.

Keith


From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Carole Hough <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 09 July 2020 09:38
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:  Ilnenelane
 
Yes, but the preponderance of topographical generics may support the 'elf' interpretation.

Carole

From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Keith Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 09 July 2020 09:31
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [EPNL]  Ilnenelane
 
If any of these are written Eluin- in the original manuscript (and mistranscribed as Elvin-), then they might be from the name Ægelwine, or even Æþelwine.

Keith 

From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Jeremy Harte <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 09 July 2020 09:17
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:  Ilnenelane
 
Wonderful! Another example, and an early one, to add to Elvendon, Ulvendon c.1240 (PN Oxon 1 p52 – note the U), Elfonenghouses 1308 in Dacre (PN Yorks WR 5 p142), Elvinhowe 1577 in Gosforth (PN Cumb 2 p397), Elven Close C17 in Cookham (PN Berks 1 p86), and the undated, unlocated and apparently otherwise unknown Elvenfen in Lincs (EPNE 1 p149). And Dorchester, unless someone finds aneln/iln/uln/yln lurking in a forgotten corner cupboard of the lexicon

 

I have doubts about elfen as a presumed feminine form: so does Alaric Hall, I think. I’d be happy with it as an adjective rather than an analogical ME plural, but is that possible?

 

Jeremy 

 

From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Richard Coates
Sent: 02 July 2020 16:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re:  Ilnenelane

 

Pure coincidence - a correspondent today tells me of a form Elvinelond in a boundary clause of a charter of Cringleford, Norfolk (Arundel MS., unspecified, c.1250). Does that help?

 

Richard

 

From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Keith Briggs <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 02 July 2020 10:35
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [EPNL]  Ilnenelane

 

My point is perhaps the stronger one that even viewing the original will not help – unless there is a missed variant reading; in this case a single Ilfen- would clinch it.   I know Leu is correct for the Ipswich surname, because it is occasionally Lew.   In the attached image from a Henry III fine roll, the top name must be Punteis, but the u and n are identical, so is the bottom name Telnetha’ or Teluetha’?

 

Keith

 

From: The English Place-Name List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jeremy Harte
Sent: Thursday, 02 July 2020 10:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re:  Re: Ilnenelane

 

Elnena would, I believe, be ‘of the fore-arms’ rather than ‘like an elbow’. Keith has hit on the weak point in my argument, though as that’s one which would involve going down to Dorchester to have a look at the original charters it’s not going to be solved immediately. They’re DC-DOB/A1 and A2 in the Dorset History Centre.

 

Jeremy

 


On 02/07/2020, 09:45 Keith Briggs <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I presume "1195" should be 1995.  I'm not sure we "can rule out the possibility that the original editor, Charles Herbert Mayo, mistranscribed the name eleven times over".  Very often u and n are absolutely indistinguishable, and once you get the idea that n is correct, it biases perceptions towards that reading.   There was a thirteenth-century Ipswich family called Leu, but this is given as Len by many authors.  I have many similar examples.   If it was misread from Ilm-, you might have elms, but that is a much less likely misreading. 

 

Keith

 

From: The English Place-Name List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Jeremy Harte <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 02 July 2020 09:27
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ilnenelane

 

When I was a lad, I believed almost everything I read in books, and absolutely everything I read in books published by the English Place-Name Society. So I was chuffed to find, in the section on Dorchester in PN Dorset 1 p350, that Colliton Street was ‘earlier (la) Vlnen(e)lane1393–1436... Ilnen(e)lane 1401–1428... If, as seems likely, Vln-, Iln- are errors for Vlu-, Ilu-, the first of the early names probably means “elves’ lane”, either from OE elf (WSax ielf) (if en(e)- represents an analogical ME wk. gen pl., v. -ena), or, as Professor Löfvenberg suggests, from the fem. OE elfen (WSax ielfen)’. In those days I was often in Colliton Street, where the absence of surviving she-elves was a bit of a disappointment. But time has brought its compensations, one of which is a full set of the Proceedings of the Dorset  Nat. Hist. & Arch. Soc, where in 117 (1195) pp21–50 I find an article by the late Jo Draper on ‘The topography of Dorchester in the fifteenth century’, which includes (pp36–8) a very full form series for this street name:
Vlnenlane 1393
Ulnenlane 1401
Ulnlane 1399, 1436
Ilnenelane 1401, 1408, 1408, 1410, 1413
Ilnenlane 1422, 1428

 

These are the same references as in PN Dorset but I cannot for the life of me see how Vln- and Iln- could consistently appear as an error for Vlu- and Ilu-. These are borough records and the notaries were writing down the name of a street that they’d known all their lives. I think we can also rule out the possibility that the original editor, Charles Herbert Mayo, mistranscribed the name eleven times over, as Jo worked on her topography with the archivist Margaret King who went back to the originals and confirmed Mayo’s general accuracy. So all the philological learning behind Mills’ etymology has gone to waste.

 

But does anyone have a better one? I can see that the C14/15 forms might derive from an original ylnena lane, ‘street of the ylns’. But what the devil is an yln?

 

Jeremy Harte


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